Friday, April 07, 2006

Week in Preview

Yep, it's Passover in less than a week!

Monday, April 10th, Passover education, part deux, with Rabbi Gordon (email yisroel at for more info).

Tuesday, April 11th, free barbecue at Hillel.

Wednesday, April 12th, there will be two student-oriented seders, one at the Chabad House and one on campus at Merrill (Reform-style, by Hillel). Both seders are open to all.

Thursday, April 13th, there will be a student-oriented family-style seder at the Chabad House. Kol Tefillah, Santa Cruz's Conservative congregation, will be hosting a Conservative Passover seder downtown.

Friday, April 14th, Friday Night Live at the Chabad House includes free four-course Shabbat dinner and good vibes. Student-led services and free dinner at Hillel.

And here's your end-of-the-week entertainment. I wish I could have posted something about Passover, but I think I exhausted the Passover entertainment already.

So this clip is from one of the funniest Israeli television shows ever, called ארץ נהדרת ("Eretz Nehederet"). Not that I watched that much TV in Israel, but this was one show that I felt was often worth it.

I would say it's the Israeli version of The Daily Show, but obviously it's on a whole different level. I think they speak enough English in the clip that you get the point.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

So Chabad's Seder is suitable for everyone, but Hillel's is just for Reform Jews? Man, Uriel, you're totally unbiased.


Sat Apr 08, 05:58:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Fedora Black said...

oh yes, and the reserved parking at the Hillel seder really sets a welcoming mood for people who are shomer mitzvos...

The add for the Hillel seder on the Hillel website actually says "Reform style, student-led religious service and dinner", so that pretty much sums things up. While it is true that Chabads seder will be Orthodox, for lack of a better term, this standard of observance is acceptable to all with respect to Halacha, and every one, regardless of level of observance could join in. Whether or not the Orthodox standard offends them personally, is a whole other issue...

The truth is that by making the Hillel seder Reform Style, Jews are excluded. This is not the case for an Orthodox seder, be it at Chabad or anywhere else.

Sat Apr 08, 11:01:00 PM 2006  
Blogger JewSlug said...

Also, just as Uriel simply repeated what was said on Hillel's own website about ther seder, he did the same with the Chabad seder. If you look at any of their advertisements for Passover, that is exactly what it says.

If Hillel stated that their seder was suitable for every Jew, then you might have had a point Jacob.

Sat Apr 08, 11:54:00 PM 2006  
Blogger G-D SQUAD said...

As was already mentioned, I only wrote what was advertised by each org. Hillel advertised a Reform-style seder, and Chabad advertised a seder open to Reform/Conservative/Orthodox, etc (I think their flyers even said "any Jew that moves," which was obviously sarcastic, but you get the point--every Jew is welcome).

So, I'm totally not accusing anyone of anything but I just want the facts to be clear: Hillel is putting on an ideologically-driven seder that is designed for a certain demographic of Jews, while Chabad's is designed to be welcoming to, literally, every Jew.

In all seriousness, I see what my post looked like, but hopefully you see that Hillel's seder is actually biased. My first two years at Santa Cruz I went to Hillel's seders, but I, for example, wouldn't be able to go this year even if I wanted to for halachic reasons.

These are just the facts on the ground. I think it's beautiful that Hillel is having a seder on campus that many students will be able to attend who might not have attended a seder at all.

Sun Apr 09, 01:42:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous Jacob said...

My point is that both Seders are open to everyone, it shouldn't be made to seem that one is and one isn't. Chabad's Seder is just as ideologically driven as Hillel's. Nothing that Hillel is going to leave out or add in goes against Jewish laws or tradition, and if anything did, I would encourage someone to talk to me about it.

You're right, Orthodox Jews probably wouldn't feel comfortable at the Hillel Seder. Just because one group of people feels more comfortable at one Seder doesn't mean that they're not welcome at the other.

Your post makes it look like Hillel's is only open to Reform Jews, and not secular, unaffiliated, Conservative, Reconstructionist Jews, and anyone that wants to attend.

Parking makes it accessible to those that want to drive up there; we're not forcing people to drive up to Merrill, so that point is ludicrous.

Sun Apr 09, 05:44:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Fedora Black said...

"Nothing that Hillel is going to leave out or add in goes against Jewish laws or tradition"

So I assume that this means the Reform style service will include a mechitzah during the prayer service?

As for ideology, I would not call the Chabad seder ideological. They way they are doing the seder is simply the way they would have done it in their home and according to their family background. They are hosts, doing a seder the way they do it, and are inviting any Jew to attend.

Again, it is Hillel itself that has called its seder Reform. Keep in mind Jacob, that there is a big difference between being welcome in the sense that one is free to attend, and actually being made to FEEL welcome

Sun Apr 09, 06:08:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Jacob said...

First of all, let me say that I feel as though I'm defending Hillel's Seder on a site that is supposedly about equality and unification. I am not trying to get people to not go to Chabad's Seder. I have had a great time at every Chabad event that I've been to. I have serious problems, however, with the difference between what this blog says it's about and what it actually does.

Let me explain the double standard that I think is going on here:

Our flyers do not say "Reform Seder." Our website event description does. Chabad's event description says, "Join us for a Traditional Seder." So, by the same logic that you all have, only Traditional students should feel welcome, and that should then go on the front of this blog.

Hillel did not get the memo that we have to start putting which sects of Judaism are welcome at our events. All sarcasm aside, our flyers say "Passover Seder." Tell me how that excludes people.

Yes, Chabad is open to everyone. However, they're putting on an Orthodox program. Hillel is open to everyone, and we're putting on a Reform program. Would the average female Jew on this campus feel comfrotable at a mechitzah service? I don't think so.

I didn't realize, Fedora, that Orthodox Jews have a monopoly on Jewish traditions. I didn't say that Hillel's Seder is going to be Orthodox.

People put a lot of work into Passover and every other event that Hillel does. Something that claims to be representative of all Jewish orgs and students needs to be a lot more sensitive to this.

The only question left that I have is- do the people running this blog really want people to be united at one place rather than the other? If so, be honest about it, and then I won't argue.

Sun Apr 09, 07:23:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Frum Mommy said...

I think you have blown a perfectly innocent post into a huge temper tantrum. I don't think G-d Squad is advocating one seder over another. In fact, I don't think that he has ever expressed his leaning toward one event or another. What he does personally, is up to him. The site is a place where many different events have been posted, some that I would not attend, but because I am not there does not mean someone else might not find the information interesting or that they might benefit from the event.

I always get the impression from your comments that you feel personally offended by any post that mentions Hillel.

By the way, when Hillel post that the service is going to be tradition it is not meant in the same way as maybe a traditional event at Chabad Student, now is it.

If you don't want people to think that the seder is Reform, then the word "Reform" should not be posted anywhere. So, then admit, that it was a mistake and stop kvetching. People will choose which seder they will attend either way.

Today a wonderful thing happened. I was at Mollie Stones in Palo Alto shopping for my Passover foods and everyone also shopping in the kosher section was happy, wishing eachother a "hag sameach". It did not matter if they knew eachother or that they were observant, everyone was excited about Pesach. Why can't you feel the same way and just relax a little.

Jacob, I wish you a kosher and happy Passover.

Sun Apr 09, 08:16:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Jacob said...

Frum Mommy- don't be ridiculous. Of course I want people to know it's Reform. Did you even read my comments? Happy Passover to you too.

Sun Apr 09, 08:53:00 PM 2006  
Blogger G-D SQUAD said...

Jacob, I'm really sorry man, I totally don't mean to offend. I just typed that post up pretty fast, and I guess the wording offended you.

I tried to change it so now it should sound more to your liking.

Again, I do feel a bit like you're implying that I personally have some kind of Chabad agenda, and I feel the need to respond.

Do you know where one of my top two favorite places to spend Shabbos in California is? At Hillel-- Beach Hillel in Long Beach. Whenever I'm in Southern California for Shabbat, that's always the first place I plan on going.

If I lived in Long Beach, I would be there every week. So if I had a Chabad-minded agenda, why would I do such a thing when there are probably many more than ten great Chabad Houses within a 20-mile radius of Long Beach?

Because I don't have a Chabad agenda. My favorite davening style is Carlebach (although I do use Tehilas HaShem), and I personally have branched out to non-Chabad Jewish communities throughout the Bay Area, including the definitely non-Chabad Beit Midrash in Berkeley, which I love.

I do have a halachic agenda. Hillel here in Santa Cruz doesn't run itself like other Hillels. Beach Hillel for instance (which is turning itself into a national phenomenon as we speak) is literally welcoming to Jews of every single background, Reform, unaffiliated, ultra-Orthodox, whatever, on a daily basis.

While Hillel here has more and more promoted a Reform and Conservative agenda. I have visited other Hillels as well, I see that things are a little different in each place, but none that I've visited have been as Reform/Conservative leaning as this one.

Of course, Hillel is entitled to run itself however it wants. I'm totally not admonishing you AT ALL right now, I think the goal of increasing Jewish life on campus is a beautiful thing.

I'll say it again, I would love to see Hillel here grow and blossom. No doubt about it. Thank you for letting me know that my wording seemed biased. And please do continue to let me know in the future. I think one of the orginizers of the Reform seder is actually a contributor to this blog, just so you know.

Sun Apr 09, 09:05:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Jacob said...


It's actually Beach Hillel that runs itself differently than other Hillels. Our Hillel here used to be more traditional, but now that Chabad is here, it does not make sense to be as religiously Conservative as we used to be. If we were putting on Chabad-style Seders the same nights that the Chabad Student Center was doing their Seders, wouldn't that seem a little silly? So, we're trying to do things differently than Chabad, so that we reach different people and are actually not competing with them over attendance at events. This becomes difficult for events like Passover, when obviously both organizations are going to have Seders. It becomes more difficult, then, when people are criticizing Hillel for having a less-than-Orthodox Seder when it's actually to the benefit of Chabad as well as the Jewish students of UCSC.

Mon Apr 10, 10:43:00 AM 2006  
Blogger Fedora Black said...


While I am sure that I am misreading your above comment, you seem to be saying that the SC Hillel has decided to specifically target less "conservative" students (I assume, by the way, that you meant "conservative" and not "Conservative", as you wrote). I am happy that you are open about how this is now SC Hillel's approach. As the Hillel is now targeting a certain demographic, you can see why the remaining demographic does not feel that the SC Hillel Seder is for everyone, or feel welcome at Hillel events or Hillel affiliated events (such as the JSU meeting).

I fully disagree with you that the Long Beach Hillel is the odd man out. The SC Hillel is. Many Hillels have Orthodox participation on some level, even if there is a Chabad affiliated with the same campus. I do understand, however, that Hillel is based to a large degree on student driven events and student led services, and that one does not find "conservative" students aligned with the SC Hillel. Whether more "conservative" students don't participate more because they don't feel welcome, or whether they don't feel welcome because more of them don't participate, can be debated. However, it is my understanding that the Chabad service that was held to great success at Hillel a few years ago, and which filled Hillel to the brim, was never repeated because a student complained about the mechitzah. In addition, I know one observant student who has asked about holding a non-Chabad Orthodox Friday night service at Hillel once a quarter, and was told that there was no interest in it from Hillel's side.

I would like to say that like the G-man, I do not have a Chabad agenda, but have a halachik one. While I feel at home with Chassidic thought and practise, I have not been to a Chabad house in months, and enjoy praying, learning, and spending the Holidays with the very non-Chassidic kollel in Mountain View (which, by the way, held the best Purim party I have ever gone to). I have a growing interest in Mussar and Breslov Chassidus, as well as the Thought of Rav Soloveichik, and those who know me can testify that I can be very critical of Chabad if need be.

Mon Apr 10, 12:41:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous Jacob said...

First, I see two places that I said things that need to be corrected. One: Beach Hillel, from what I've heard, is run by more Traditional Jews than most Hillels. That is certainly not a bad thing, and they are obviously very sucessful. I did not mean to insinuate that they are a "Black Sheep Hillel," as Uri put it. Two: Since I grew up in a relatively unaffiliated household, words like, "halachik," are still relatively new to me. Since I am also relatively new at interacting with Chabadniks, it appears to me that they are 100% halachik (please correct me if I'm wrong about anything I just said; I don't want to offend anyone here). So, in many places where I wrote Chabad-style, what I meant was "more halachik." For this, I apologize. I hope that clears this up a bit.

So, if I get this Fedora indicated above, he or she has a halachik agenda. I am not arguing against that as a personal opinion. However, I was still under the impression that this blog was about trying to get Jewish students here to see all of the Jewish events going on campus, and to post relevant articles and pieces of humor. If it is about getting students to be more observant, and for Jewish events, including Hillel events, to be more halachik, shouldn't that be made more clear?

Why then, would it be in Hillel's interest to have our events on here if they are only going to be criticized for not being more halachik? Or AEPi or Sigma to be listed as resources? I'm being totally serious here, and I'm not trying to be a jerk about anything that I have written here...or have a temper tantrum (funny, I didn't know that the internet had a tone of voice option where someone could tell I was having a tantrum instead of calmly writing any of those comments in front of the Daily Show, as I was actually doing).

Also, as a minor note- many, many students complained about the mechitzah service, not just one. Anytime Chabad and Hillel do something together, our places are filled to the brim, because each place is meant to hold around 60, and 100 people in either of those rooms fills it up quite well. Hopefully someday soon they will both have much bigger rooms.

The irony about all of this is that with each Shabbat that goes by and I drive instead of walk, or turn on the tv and watch sports instead of going for a nice walk to hear someone read from the Torah, I feel more and more...I don't know, not wrong, not left out...I guess more and more that I'm doing what I used to do out of routine instead of what I want to do. Arguments like this make me reconsider, because I don't want to end up criticizing people and organizations for being less observant than myself. Maybe that has to do more with religious observance still being a choice to me and not an obligation, and maybe that's wrong, I don't know.

Does the Blue Lagoon sell KP beer? If so, Uriel, I'm buying you some in the next couple of days, call me. And Fedora, I'd love for you to come along.

Tue Apr 11, 10:01:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous shalom bochner said...

Dear Friends,

I just got off the phone a few minutes ago with my good friend and colleague Rabbi Shlomie Chein from the Chabad Student Center. We are both sad about the tone and content of some of the recent postings about the Hillel and Chabad Seders. We are both very busy with Passover preparations right now but I felt the strong need to break my blog silence and add my personal comments.

R' Shlomie and I meet and study Talmud regularly together. We are not in competition with each other; we each work hard to compete with apathy and Jewish ignorance. We both feel like blog threads like this don't help for three reasons:

1. These issues are best addressed through a face to face meeting since e-mails are easy to misunderstand;

2. Some of the bloggers seem to be speaking for and representing Chabad when in fact only R' Shlomie and Devorah Leah should do so; and

3. These public blog forums do not promote campus Jewish unity, harmony, understanding and growth.

I ask that everyone involved in this maklochect (disagreement) take a few deep breaths and try to gain a larger perspective. Hillel and Chabad are both here to serve all the Jewish students at UCSC. Chabad does this through "traditional", "classic" or "Chabad" style events; Hillel through being a pluralistic organization. Both are valid and much needed approaches if we are serious about the significant survival of the Jewish people. I would also encourage everyone who has weighed in on this Passover discussion to find a time that we could meet in person to clear the air and develop better communication for the future. I would be delighted to host, or just participate in, such a discussion and will even bring some kosher snacks. Perhaps Chol HaMoed Pesach, or the next week would be the right timing.

Hillel and Chabad are both here for all Jewish students. We both strive to make our events welcoming to everyone. Obviously people have their preferences and both R’ Shlomie and I are ok with that. Let’s move away from labels, self-righteousness, and being experts on what constitutes “traditional” or “halachic”. These words are not copyrighted by any one person, movement, or organization. Let’s exchange some of these impassioned blog posts for more Jewish life, more l’chaims, more cooperation and greater understanding. I hope that is something that we can all agree upon.

Wishing you all a happy, kosher, and liberating Festival of Freedom,

-Rabbi Shalom Bochner
Director of Jewish Campus Life for Santa Cruz Hillel

Tue Apr 11, 01:44:00 PM 2006  
Blogger G-D SQUAD said...

Jacob and Shalom-
I've been trying to have a serious meeting with both of you for a number of months now, you know that. I hope it happens soon.

Jacob, I'm not the only contributor to this blog. I, as an individual, do have a halachic agenda and I do make my voice heard. There are other contributors to the JewniProj who have Conservative agendas, or Reform agendas, and they can post whatever and whenever they want. Because they choose not to post as often, doesn't make the blog have a halachic agenda. So, you and I can debate all we want, but please leave the blog out of it.

You're talking about questioning your Jewish practices because of people's comments on here-- we're talking past each other. To put it bluntly: I wish I could occasionally daven at Hillel and have dinner there Friday night, but I can't, halachically. That's the environment that exists there. And that's totally cool if that's what gets more Jews doing Jewish with other Jews.

But I think what gets people defensive is the fact that such an environment by definition exludes certain Jews. Some people (or depending on the locale, many people) may be uncomfortable with a mechitza. Is that because they equate mechitza with submission of women or repression of sexual urges? Probably. Did they ever actually ask someone knowledgeable about the subject what it's all about, or ask women or men who do daven with a mechitza what they think? Probably not.

So in one case, there is de facto exclusion, and in the other case, we have a misunderstanding. All Jews love each other whether they know it or not, but Jews don't like de facto exclusion. I just wanted to clear that up. (And, fyi, I know everyone hates labels, but a good part of the crowd at Beach Hillel are kids who I grew up at the URJ's Temple Beth David with or who I worked at the URJ's Camp Newman with. Beach Hillel davens with a mechitzah. "Reform Jews" and everyone else included. If anyone wants to discuss how they feel about that, I'll put you in touch).

This blog is designed as a forum for Jewish thought in Santa Cruz and the surrounding communities. It is meant to bring the campus community closer online and expand Jewish UCSC's online presence.

Shalom and Jacob, I can't help it that people have serious criticisms of certain orgs and that they express them here. Overall, we get along and we do our thing. But there has never before been an open forum, and it's unfortunate that you don't feel the dicussions are constructive. Sometimes they're not, but I think for the most part they are.

Shalom, that's cool that you called Shlomie and that you guys learn together and that you're friends. I also learn with Shlomie, and I also learn with you, Shalom, at your BLT classes. Does that break down other people's stereotypes? No.

I, as I've stated too many times before, know that in the end there is no competition. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who does see that. And I hope in the future we can support each other and get those disenfranchised other few thousand Jews doing Jewish with other Jews. For real.

And, Shalom, I don't know who is speaking for or represetning Chabad around here. In fact, I've had to explain too many times that I don't in any way represent or speak for Chabad. Jacob seems to think that I do, and I guess you do also, but I only speak for myself.

In your commment, it sounds like you called Shlomie just to discuss this blog, which may or may not have been the case. If it is the case, you need to understand that Shlomie is really not involved with this blog at all. He is as involved as you are. Please, call me if you want to discuss it.

Your third point, that "These public blog forums do not promote campus Jewish unity, harmony, understanding and growth" I disagree with completely. Over the past four months, the amount of information that has passed through this blog has been overwhelming, and if students were reading and paying attention, they definitely grew and and learned. The huge majority of the posts here are unquestionably positive.

I guess if you only read the two or three threads like this one (out of more than 200 posts), you might get the impression that "These public blog forums do not promote campus Jewish unity, harmony, understanding and growth."

I'll also remind you that Jacob was the first to comment. He could have emailed me or called me, or even left a benign comment that said, "You might want to change the wording of Wednesday's events, because people might get the wrong impression." But instead, he left a slighly irksome comment that ruffled a number of people's feathers.

Also, this blog has brought Jewish students together in the real world, outside of blogging, not in huge numbers, but in meaningful ways. Just because we don't brag about it or that you're not aware of it doesn't mean it's not happening.

Well, I hope to have a meeting with you both. Jacob, I don't know about KLP beer at Blue Lagoon... I think you should come over to my house and we'll make l'chaims on some KLP shots of Arak. Then we'll get some serious business done.

I can't tell right now if my tone through all this was off-hand... I've had only a handful of hours of sleep the last few days because of Pesach preparations and balancing school.

As a disclaimer or whatever, I respect you both as individuals. Don't let this petty stuff get in the way of what we're all trying to do. And if you guys don't think I have the same goals as you, then there is a misunderstanding somewhere. I look forward to ironing it all out.

Tue Apr 11, 11:16:00 PM 2006  
Anonymous shalom bochner said...

Thanks Uriel for your lengthy and thoughtful comments. Thanks for updating the way that the Hillel Seder is described. I agree that Jacob's original sarcastic posting was not the best way to communicate concerns about the Hillel Seder event description. I hope that we can have a meeting in person soon as I am always interested in hearing feedback about Hillel and I would be happy to share my thoughts and suggestions about the blog site.

To be clear, my comments about the blog were MY comments alone (not R' Shlomie's as well) and they were a reference ONLY to some of the recent postings about Hillel's Passover Seder. I did not find some of these to be very helpful to produce a better positive understanding of Hillel or the Jewish campus community at UCSC. This blog site has great potential and I am not passing judgment on it at all. I am glad that students have a forum to inform each other and comment on Jewish life on campus. I am also clear that Uriel is not a spokesperson for Chabad. I would hope that others who have posted could show greater respect in the future as to how and where these discussions should occur.

Please allow me to comments about what you said: "I wish I could occasionally daven at Hillel and have dinner there Friday night, but I can't, halachically. That's the environment that exists there. And that's totally cool if that's what gets more Jews doing Jewish with other Jews.

But I think what gets people defensive is the fact that such an environment by definition excludes certain Jews."

Hillel puts on many events. Some of them will work for some people and some maybe won't. That is the nature of pluralism and if you have suggestions of how to better offer a range of programs to a diverse Jewish student population, I would be very happy to hear them. For example, if we sponsor a hawkish speaker from Israel, some Jewish leftist students may feel "excluded". Our kosher kitchen "excludes" Jewish students who might want to make food that would have been acceptable in their childhood Reform Temple. Our Israeli dancing might "exclude" students who are shomer nagiah. When we have had Tefillah with a mechitzah at Hillel it has "excluded" egalitarian Jewish students. This is both the challenge and the excitement of a pluralistic organization like Hillel. It's a rare creature. Show me another international Jewish pluralistic organization?

Most of the time I think we do a great job and we are always open to feedback when you think we could do better. We do not try to actively "exclude" anyone and we also understand that not everything we do will appeal to everyone. We think that most of what we put on is welcoming to the largest number of people possible. I do not always feel strongly connected with every speaker, event, or holiday event that Hillel puts on; that is not the point. Hillel's mandate as an international organization is to be a pluralistic Jewish organization that provides social, holiday, educational, Israel, and social action programs for the students we serve. Not all Hillels are the same in terms of the staff, students, budget, etc. We learn from each other and we attempt to reflect the ever changing needs of the campuses we each serve. Hillel staff are Orthodox, Reform, secular, Conservative, leftist, conservative, gay, straight, Renewal, halachic, not deeply interested in religion, Sephardi, Mizrahi, or Ashkenazi, and all points in between. We are as diverse as the students we serve.

I did not talk to R' Shlomie because I thought he was the contact for the blog. I spoke to him because he is my partner in the vital work of reaching Jewish students at UCSC and I felt that some of the postings misrepresented the true supportive relationship between our organizations. I have deep personal and professional respect for the work that Chabad does. I ask that people who read and post on this blog show that same respect to Hillel and all of the campus' Jewish student groups. If you don’t think that a particular event works for you, either don’t attend it (thankfully there are many Jewish options in this small shtetle!) or suggest how it could better work for you. Claiming that Hillel is not “traditional” “halachic” or “welcoming” is not true and it is not respectful.

I hope that both Hillel and Chabad have 100+ students at their “Reform” and “Home Style” Sedarim this year. I hope that instead of serving a few hundred students we can serve all of the 3,000+ Jewish students at UCSC! I bless both organizations with increased funding, increased building space, and continued success.

Jews like to argue; I guess it’s in our DNA. I personally like to focus on what unites us not what separates us. As part of a Hillel, I see that ALL Jewish expressions are valid, even those that I do not personally agree with. We help support almost 10 Jewish student groups and orgs and there is room for more. There is always room at the table and its a big tent with many doors, just like the tent of Abraham and Sarah. Santa Cruz Hillel offers a Jewish “salad bar” of choices. Sample what you want to and can eat, come back for seconds or leave it on your plate. It’s better than childhood; you don’t have to eat anything that you don’t want to and you can ask for a special order! It’s a great Kosher for Passover salad bar and most importantly; have a kosher and happy Passover wherever you will be.


Wed Apr 12, 10:27:00 AM 2006  
Anonymous shalom bochner said...


I hope that I am invited for the Arak too.

Wed Apr 12, 10:29:00 AM 2006  
Blogger Fedora Black said...

It is so funny how everyone on this thread feels like they must have the last word...

Wed Apr 12, 11:54:00 AM 2006  

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